How Do Men Talk to Other Men about Female Troubles?
Good morning and welcome to our first installment of Wayne Wednesday where Wayne Levine, director of the West Coast Men’s Center in Agoura Hills, CA, will enlighten (and maybe frighten!) us on the workings of the male mind. Today Wayne will tackle how men discuss their woman troubles.
Go to it, Wayne!
How do men talk to other men about their female troubles?
Man #1: “What a bitch!”
Man #2: “Yeah, I know what you mean.”
Man #1: “Want another beer?”
Man #2: “Never thought you’d ask!”
I’m sorry to report that this is the depth to which many men actually delve into their issues with women when speaking with other men. Why?
Well, it’s easier to blame than to accept responsibility. So, let’s start by blaming her. We know, from all things media, it’s perfectly acceptable to lob a few of these comments out to a man or group of men without fear of judgment. In fact, TV and movies tell us that this is an acceptable way for us men to make connections with other men. Bitch about our wives!
Once we can agree that our women are pains in the ass, we can laugh, watch the game, and enjoy the distraction from our miserable lives.
But why are we even putting it out there? We’re obviously challenged, anxious, irritated, angry, depressed or upset about something. Talking about it might help release it, allow us to forget about it for a while, and perhaps there’s an outside chance that we might even find a solution. But I suspect most men have learned to not expect solutions when they bring these issues up with their buddies.
Solutions come from examination. Examination requires inquiry. Inquiry requires that we reveal. And revealing is a risk. Most men, for fear of humiliation, won’t take the risk. Shame wins.
So here we have men who have a problem. They might even desperately want to talk about it. And they may even be this close to asking for help. But all that’s readily available to them is a surface connection, limited by all participants’ fear of taking off the mask, revealing their pain, appearing weak, or looking like a fool. They’ll walk into the bar, the parent meeting, or the neighbor’s house with a hidden, secret desire to solve their problems. But they leave with their problems intact, and possibly even more frustrated by having only been able scratch the scab, not heal the wound.
There are men who can share more intimate details with each other. And the very fortunate ones have friends who ask good questions and can offer sage advice.
Obviously, the men I work with want to find solutions to their “female troubles.” But they have no idea how to go about doing it. Eventually, they learn a few things:
1. It’s never about her. It’s always about the kind of man you are with her, and what you can do differently to be the man you want to be and then be more the man she wants and needs.
2. Complaining, blaming and whining get us nowhere. When a man brings up an issue regarding his woman, a friend asks questions to help him get to some clarity and hopefully to a solution.
3. If you want to help another man, reveal yourself first. This makes it safe for him to tell you the truth, to tell himself the truth.
When men come together with these skills—or at least a rudimentary understanding of what we need from each other—a completely different dialogue takes place.
Man #1: “What a bitch!”
Man #2: “What do you mean.”
Man #1: “You know what I mean.”
Man #2: “What happened?”
Man #1: “Same old shit with her. I came home…story…”
Man #2: “Well, I’ve been there. Last week…story…”
Man #1: “Exactly. I’m so sick of it.”
Man #2: “Well, what are you going to do about it?”
Man #1: “What do you mean?”
Man #2: “What are you going to do about it?
Man #1: “What can I do?”
And now the men have something to talk about. Moving beyond the complaint, they have an opportunity to share their experiences and maybe even figure out how to solve their “female problems.”
The key question is always, “What are you going to do about it?” This question takes us out of the problem and into the solution. Unfortunately, it’s a question most men find difficult to pose.
Thank you, Wayne.
To the ladies out there, does your significant other have male friends he talks to? And for the men, would you feel comfortable talking to your friends this way? We’d love to hear from you.
If you have a question for Wayne, please send it to WayneWednesday@RomanceUniversity.org. You never know, he may use it for an upcoming Wayne Wednesday topic.
Be sure to join us on Friday when Cindy Carroll returns to talk screenwriting.
Bio: Wayne M. Levine, M.A. is the director of the West Coast Men’s Center in Agoura Hills, CA, where he coaches and mentors men, and facilitates men’s groups. He also created the BetterMen Retreats for men, and for fathers and sons. In addition, Wayne is the founder of Mentor4Men.com, a life coaching and mentoring resource for men.
Wayne’s interest in men’s issues began in the early ‘90s with his participation in men’s work activities. His experiences with men’s groups, as a participant, leader and program developer, taught Wayne to “father” men and to support them in making difficult and important changes in their lives.
He earned his Master’s in Clinical Psychology from Antioch University/Los Angeles. Wayne also received his BA in journalism and graduated Magna Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa from the University of Southern California.
Wayne’s been married to his first and only wife, Ria, for over 20 years and is the proud daddy of Emma, Austin and the family’s menagerie of animals. Wayne strives to be a better man, husband and father each day in Oak Park, CA.
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Hi Wayne -
This is such a wonderful column for our readers!
In the romance genre, characters often “process” events in the story by talking with other characters. How would a man talk with another man about a woman he’s just met and is intrigued with (and maybe frustrated by)?
Thanks!
Kelsey
Oh that’s clever, trying to get me to write some critical dialogue for you.
It’s entirely dependent on the relationship between the men. A lot of men won’t say a word. Even in our groups, we often find out weeks later that a man’s got a new woman. They’re usually so intoxicated, they don’t want to mention it for fear that the other men will kill their buzz, i.e., point out the red flags so that the man won’t make his same mistakes again. What a man says also depends on his age. Young men will have a much different experience than more experienced men. What frustrates a young guy is completely different than what would frustrate a older man.
Fascinating. Confirms what I’ve always suspected. We once spent some time with our dearest friends who were having traumatic marital problems at the time. The wife and I spent our five days together talking it over virtually non-stop whenever we were alone. The husband and my husband spent the same five days off doing things together and never mentioned it. My husband only found out there was a problem when we were on our way home, just the two of us.
Well, sometimes she’ll see the problem as a much larger issue than he sees it. Sometimes he refuses to see it at all. Fear keeps us in denial. If we have no idea how to fix the problem, perhaps it’ll just disappear on its own. Not usually.
Hi Wayne and thanks for being here. Great post!
Hi Wayne…
Great post, had a blast reading it!
Do you think that instead of a man talking to a man about woman troubles, he might find it easier to talk to a woman about them? Like a female friend, a sister? Or would he clam up even more (if such a thing was possible)
=)
carrie
I think men can get great insight from a sharp, caring woman. The problem is that many men get all of their info from women. They receive a woman’s perspective and then act on her suggestions. Sometimes, that’ll work out just fine. But when it comes to more serious issues, men need to hear from other men. The best solutions to our relationship problems may not be the solutions recommended by women. Look at it this way, if I were your man and I did everything you wanted me to do, just the way you wanted me to do it, how long do you think it would take before you tired of me, lost respect for me, and wished that I would just be man and do as I saw fit?
What’s the old saying? If two people agree on everything, one of them is unnecessary
Thanks for the insights, Wayne.
I think it depends a great deal on who the potential confessor is. My husband wouldn’t discuss his problems with, say, his male acquaintances among our kids’ parents, but he doesn’t hesitate to talk to his brothers, or my brother, or his father–men he knows well and trusts.
And part of his willingness to be open with those men he knows well and trusts is how he was raised, by a father who is the same way, despite the generation he belongs to. And part of the reason HE’S that way is probably because his father died when he was 13 and he had primarily female influences in his life.
Come to think of it, most of the men I know who open up easily, to both men and women, had strong female influences growing up, and many a lack of male influence.
What do you think, Wayne? Do you see that as a big factor, generally speaking?
A lot of us were raised by women. But our experiences are varied. The healthy moms taught us about love, compassion and the value of sharing our feelings. Other moms taught us fear, resentment and how to cut off from others when we don’t like what we’re getting. The trap for men who were raised to share their feelings is that they were often taught to see the world through female eyes and to solve their problems the way women would solve their problems. Men aren’t women. We naturally approach things differently. Eventually, we find that we need something more to successfully solve our issues. We need masculine input and the support and validation to trust our guts, our instincts that might have been undeveloped or quashed over the years
Maybe hubs and I are the odd ones out. Or maybe I’m just naive to think we are. I swear the only time he’s ever called me a bitch was to my face.
Joking aside, I love this information. It really helps me realize how simplistic, yet complex the male brain is. It definitely gives me something to work with in my manuscript.
Great post, Wayne!
If a guy can’t talk about his troubles, what eventually happens to his frustration? Does it escalate? Does he eventually let it go? Does he do a verbal vomit with the girlfriend/wife?
Thanks, Tracey
LOL, Tracey – I am SO stealing the term “verbal vomit!”
K-
LOL – steal away!
The frustration doesn’t go away. What gets repressed, gets expressed. He’ll drink, shut down, act out with other women, get sick, depressed. He’ll piss off your mutual friends. Road rage. But taking it out on the girlfriend/wife is certainly the most convenient method of temporary elimination. But it’s only temporary.
I’ve finally gotten my husband of 38 years to tell me whathe wants me to do intead of just hollering come here. I told him you’re no longer in the army and I’m not your soldier to order around-lol. But the thing that would drive me nuts was the come here thing without telling me what he wanted. I’m like tell me you need me to do this or that and can I help you with it. Drove me nuts drop whatever you are doing and come here and then find out he only had a simple question.
Nice work. My suggestion to women in a similar position: when you hear the request, just don’t move. When he gets frustrated enough, he come to you and then you can let him know–calmly and before you go nuts–the “way it is.” When it’s important enough to us, we catch on…eventually.
I’ve added a photo. Let’s see if shows up.